Message posted by Sundog on September 01, 2003 at 20:38:35 PST:

If the first pic is a real aircraft and not a decoy it's definitely from the Flanker family, not the Fulcrum family, based on the aspect ratio of the vertical tail and the shape of the fuselage behind the canopy (The MiG-29's fuselage is more "faired-in" behind the canopy and doesn't have the distinctive bubble shape of the Flanker).

However, I think that pic is more likely similar to the decoy shown in the second picture which looks like a blend between a Fulcrum and a Flanker (i.e.- It's designed to look "Russian").

As for the maneuverability of the Russian aircraft, the USAF is worried about the Su-35 (At least until they get the F-22). In every simulation the USAF has run, the Su-35's ate the F-15s up. Of course, Russia really doesn't have any Su-35s, so I think it's sort of trumped up to try and get more political support for the F-22. India has the most advanced Flankers (The Su-30MMK's) and I don't see us going to war anytime soon with them.

As for the Fulcrum, I think you are referring to the Cobra maneuver which was actually performed by the Flanker first. The aircraft achieve a high AOA (Around 100 degrees alpha) during a high pitch rate maneuver, which is really just a demonstration of the aircraft's excellent aerodynamics and controllability. I don't see any fighter pilot in their right mind performing that maneuver in combat as it would cost them too much energy, unless they are only 1 vs 1 (Extremely unlikely by the Russians or the Americans). The U.S. demonstrated the maneuver on the VISTA F-16 with modified FCS software and achieved 180 degrees alpha (yes, they were flying backwards for a brief moment) but like I said, it really isn't useful in combat unless your goal is to bleed alot of "E" so you become a great big target for your opponent.

As for the T/W ratio's, at their respective combat weights the MiG-29, Su-27, F-15, and F-16 all exceed unity. However, my understanding is, at least for F-16 pilots, they are taught to use the vertical (The F-16 has one of the best T/W ratio's around and is one of the fastest accelerating aircraft in service). F-16's would be out turned by the Fulcrum, which makes sense, since the Flanker and Fulcrum were designed in response to the F-15, F-16 and F-18, so the Russians would design their aircraft to try and exceeed our performance.

What you would find is that America's edge in combat between all of those aircraft would come from our excellent command and control architecture with the AWACS, Avionics, etc. not so much the air frames. If you removed that from the equation, the battle would be bloody and tremondous losses would occur on both sides. At least until we get the F-22, but I don't see Russia threatening America, except if we decided to go nuclear for whatever reason and outside of Russia and India, I don't know of any countries operating those aircraft that have pilots operating them that we need to worry about; although during the first Gulf War an Iraqi MiG-29 reportedly locked on to an F-14, causing the pilot to pucker up tight, mainly because of the excellent Russian A2A missles. Fortunately, the Iraqi pilot apparently wasn't very well trained and was quickly taken out (I think by an F-15).

With regard to the EE Lightning, it was a kick ass airplane, but it was sort of the Spitfire of the 60's. Excellent T/W, good maneuverability, but short legs (Compared to it's contemporaries): note I am refering to internal fuel only, although they did receive A2A refueling capabilities. It was also limited in it's loadout. However, as a pure fighter, it was a kick ass airplane.

BTW, to really compare aircraft performance, based on the videos you see and the demonstrations you witness at airshows, you would also need to know what their weight was when the video was filmed or when they performed. For instance, an F-16 with only 1/2 internal fuel is going to put on a much better airshow than one with full fuel (Which wouldn't happen, but you get my point.)

Thanks for sharing the pics.

In Reply to: Re: Unknown Aircraft posted by Chris McDowell on August 30, 2003 at 21:22:55 PST:

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